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Napa Valley winemaker Dario Sattui responded Monday to the outpouring of negative reaction to his criticism of firefighters’ pay and benefits.
In a letter posted on Facebook, Sattui said his criticism was aimed solely at the American Canyon City Council, which approved a new contract with the city’s firefighters on March 30. The contract allows existing firefighters to retire at age 50 with up to 90 percent of their salaries, according to a report published in the Napa Valley Register. New hires would be required to work until age 55 to receive the same benefits.
“My beef is not with firefighters or other safety personnel, I respect and deeply appreciate their hard work, the risks that they take for all our safety, and I honor them for doing so. My concern is strictly with budgets, not with the firefighters themselves,” Sattui said in his Facebook response. A copy of full his response is attached below.
North Bay firefighters, police officers and their supporters launched a boycott of Sattui’s wines over the weekend after the winery owner criticized firefighters’ pay and benefits in a letter to the editor published in the St. Helena Star. The winery’s official Facebook site and two Facebook pages promoting the boycott were flooded with angry comments from public safety workers and their supporters Sunday as word of the letter spread on social networking sites.
Sattui supporters rallied to his defense Monday, turning the winery’s Facebook page into a forum for a spirited discussion of pension benefits for public workers.
Meanwhile, the largest site promoting the boycott, titled Public Safety Boycott V Sattui Winery and Castello di Amoroso, was attracting new members at the rate of one every minute. By noon Monday, 1,685 people had joined the group, double the number from 8 p.m. Sunday.
A second Facebook site promoting the boycott titled, in all caps, V SATTUI WINE TASTES LIKE RECYCLED SEWAGE, had attracted 266 members.
- Ted Appel
Watch Sonoma County
DARIO SATTUI’S RESPONSE
1. Although it may not have been clear, my criticism was directed to the American Canyon City Council for they are the ones that have agreed to the salary and benefits for the firefighters that we clearly cannot afford. My beef is not with firefighters or other safety personnel, I respect and deeply appreciate their hard work, the risks that they take for all our safety, and I honor them for doing so. My concern is strictly with budgets, not with the firefighters themselves, as I indicated in my letter.
2 I was speaking strictly about American Canyon firefighters and their recent salary negotiations. American Canyon firefighters are represented by the same union that helped create the recent bankruptcy of Vallejo, the first time in California history that a city has filed for bankruptcy, and high pay/benefits for safety was a key problem that forced that bankruptcy.
3. In Vallejo many of the firefighters were making more than 200K a year, one made $357,000 annually, and the average compensation was more than $ 164,000 including incentive pay and overtime. These facts are a matter of public record. Check them out for yourselves.
This was a situation that got completely out of hand until the city went belly up. I fear that the county of Napa is heading in the same direction and that is why I felt I had to speak out as a concerned citizen. Napa cannot fix the roads, has chronically underfunded schools, has in some instances let sewage water that is not sufficiently treated spill out causing environmental damage because the county is so underfunded in its infrastructure needs that it cannot afford to fix it. Yet we have firefighters whose jobs are, according to them, identical in 90% of their duties to paramedics. But these Napa County paramedics make only about $50,000 a year with much lower benefits. The firefighters in Napa make about 140K on average and many make much more than that. The firefighters in American Canyon can retire at 55 with 35 years of service at 105 % of their maximum annual compensation for life. When are we going to achieve some kind of balance? Again these facts are a matter of public record.
4. I wrote as a citizen of Napa to my local paper about a local issue that I am concerned about, and it has nothing to do with my wineries. I care about what happens in my home town, and I care about the fact that we have schools that have overcrowded classrooms and homeless women giving birth under bridges downtown, and yet we have this local class of workers that are clearly overpaid and getting more all the time when we can’t even fund decent social services in this town. Let’s remember too that we have other professions that work hard, are very important to society and risk their lives for much less money: soldiers, police in the inner cities, nurses working the night shift saving lives, teachers making a difference in troubled areas. And don’t forget about the many thousands of volunteer firefighters that often get nothing or very little compensation for their selfless hard work and risking their lives. All I ask is that we have balance and don’t have civic expenditures we can’t pay for.
We need to bring things back into balance. I am sorry if some of you disagree with that, but I wonder how much you really know about what is going on with the extravagant budgets in Napa County, because that is what this is about, not any place else. These are the facts. You decide if you agree with my opinions.
Dario Sattui
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Dear JC:
I was completely amuzed and entertained by your top ten list. You did your research and you put the results out there for us dummies to read. You also put a lot of passion and emotion into your findings. However, were so off base that I was sure I was reading a fictional story. You wrote only what you felt was pertinent and only what you believed to be the facts. Sounds like “sour grapes” lobbying to me.
Here’s another example of government employee costs. The CHP puts their life on the line every day, every time they pull someone over, every time they respond to a call. That’s understood, but are these salaries and retirement benefits sustainable in our current economy and future economies?
At some point, there has to be some compromise in what was promised in the past and the sad reality of bankrupt governments. Check out the current pay scale for the CHP… almost $90k in the first year, and the base pay goes up $14k (21.5%) in the first five years. And additional pay increases are available for being bilingual, motorcycle duty, shift differentials, senior officer pay, all starting out with 24 hours per month annual leave. Not too bad for employment that requires only a high school diploma.
http://www.chp.ca.gov/recruiting/osalary.html
TOP TEN REASONS TO BE A FIREMAN
1. The Pubic Believes the Profession is Inherently “Dangerous” – The fact is, however, some firemen never even see a live fire, but rather cart around senior citizens and illegal immigrants that call 911 for a paramedic. Rather than receiving an ambulance, however, an entire fire truck arrives equipped with the latest gadgets and numerous firemen who stand around and watch the spectacle. Firemen are also not listed on the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics top ten most dangerous professions. Nevertheless, they boast to the public about how dangerous their profession is, and how such justifies their outrageous pay. Ironically, those employees in the top ten are silent concerning the hazards of their profession, notwithstanding their significantly lower pay. Sounds like “hero lobbying.”
http://money.msn.com/content/invest/extra/P63405.asp
2. Only High School Diploma’s Need Apply- Unlike other professions that require years of foregone income and student loans (e.g., professor, dentist, lawyer, doctor, etc.) becoming a firefighter has very generous admission standards only requiring a high school diploma, and the prerequisite young age of 18. See e.g.,
http://www.fire.lacounty.gov/helpwanted/BeAFirefighter_faq.asp#appprocess
3. The Pay that Keeps on Giving – Setting aside the fact that you only work 15 days per month, get paid while you sleep, hang out with your buddies and watch porn at the fire station, the pay is outstanding! When you include overtime pay such is often in excess of $200,000. This is not to mention your generous “defined benefit” plan. Most of us in the private industry do not even know what such is. In fact, their pay has been increasing even in light of the current California budget crisis. But they are heros and therefore they deserve such extravagant pay – what a minute, is that what it takes to be a hero, excessive pay? Some make more than the base pay of the president of the United States! See e.g.,
http://www.dailynews.com/ci_12175241
http://blog.spot.us/2009/07/17/fire-department-overtime-pay-increased-amid-citywide-budget-cuts/
http://articles.latimes.com/1994-01-13/news/mn-11383_1_westminster-fire-department
http://www.fdnntv.com/news.asp_Q_articleID_E_7589_A_title_E_Los_Angeles_Fire_Department_Overtime_Pay_Causing_Controversy
http://www.caltax.org/documents/2003/McGreevy-OvertimeLAFireDepartment10-25-03.pdf
http://www.whitehouse.gov/sites/default/files/president-obama-2010-complete-return.pdf
4. Don’t Worry About Uncle Sam – Many firemen are completely exempt from social security and medicare taxation because they have their own “qualifying public retirement systems” and “voluntary agreements“ between the state and the social security administration. They may also be exempt from federal and state taxation if they obtain “line-of-duty pay.” How is that for doing your part as an American. Do our soldiers get the same treatment for their line of duty?
http://www.irs.gov/govt/fslg/article/0,,id=111350,00.html
http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/golden_fire_exit_Xgr8HobTyGE09gtAHLZLtM
5. Time to Get the Golf Clubs Out – With all of your days off (every month), you will have lots of time for numerous rounds of golf. Case in point, one FDNY firefighter was known for playing 50 rounds of golf in one year. Maybe that is how the disability occurred.
http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/golden_fire_exit_Xgr8HobTyGE09gtAHLZLtM
6. Union Protection from Salary from Disclosure – If the salary is justified why do they not want us to know about it? As a member of the union, you can rest assured they will fight the pubic disclosure of your salary and overtime pay all the way to the Supreme Court of California. I thought the public paid their salaries?
http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/data2/californiastatecases/S134253.PDF
7. Claim a “Disability” Enhance your Pension, Retire Early and Get a Second Job – This is the typical path of a firefighter. You claim a “disability” by setting the stage with your dangerous profession/hero status and then you retire early at 50, enhance your pension and find a second job.
http://www.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.nypost.com%2Fp%2Fnews%2Fregional%2Fitem_S4lnM5MIw80eNfqXwZqCVJ&h=
http://www.boston.com/news/local/articles/2008/04/17/us_probes_firefighter_disability_abuse/
http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/local/Firefighter-who-quit-after-assault-verdict-draws-disability-payments_02_17-39688397.html
http://www.oregonlive.com/news/index.ssf/2009/05/a_former_firefighter_is_suing.html
http://www.allbusiness.com/labor-employment/workers-compensation-workers-disability/13640627-1.html
http://law.justia.com/nebraska/codes/s16index/s1610031000.html
http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1P2-8181709.html
8. Why go to School and Earn Far Less. – Need I say more, notice the average salary for post-secondary teachers (with far more than a high school diploma) who earn on average $58,830. Private ambulance drivers conducing a substantially similar service earn a median wage of $30,000.
http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos066.htm
http://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes533011.htm
9. You are Immune from Budget Cuts – Each time a budget cut occurs in California, “emergency service personnel” are exempt from budget cuts and furloughs. It is your essential status.
10. Good Old Boys Club Membership – If you are a minority and are not part of the circle of nepotism you need not apply, as these magnificent benefits are not leaving the “family business.”
http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/1993-08-25/news/like-father-like-daughterin-the-phoenix-fire-department-family-ties-go-a-ling-way/
http://www.thedestinlog.com/news/fire-13479-district-nepotism.html
Jim Stewart,
Under current law the pension benefit of a public employee is protected and cannot be taken away. What happened in Sonoma County was related specifically to the health care benefit which is not covered by the law protecting pensions.
Not arguing with your point, just clarifying the legal aspect of it.
I was wondering. If an employee had paid into a system for 20 years towards 3% at 50, and now the rules have changed, does the employee get a refund from the system? Or does that employee get ripped off? I don’t know all about these plans, but it I had a contract with someone, even a gov’t agency and they broke that contract and refused to pay what they were obligated to, I think they would be liable and would lose a lawsuit. You could probably change the rules on future employees, but it is probably a losing battle to go after current employees retirement. They work for the public, not ENRON. Contracts are binding in most states, even our crazy Kalifornia.
Time will tell. I knew a retired United Airline pilot. He got his retirement cut to $180 a month. There’s a fine thank you for an honorable career worked. He planed his retirement carefully and the rules were changed and people voted his retirement away. That sucked. If no one can count on their retirement plans then why plan?
I read where Sonoma County changed the rules for their retirees a couple years ago with health care. It devistated people who planned, based on contracts. Oh well. When the gov’t is done screwing over it’s own employees, I guess they will start in on the rest of us.
I don’t begrudge public employees their benifits or pensions. It is true that less than one percent get the “Super Pension”, and that should be curtailed.
They have had these rules for over 20 years and everyone knew about it and could have gotten a job in that field. Now some of the have nots are wailing about it.
p.s. I read the Stanford Report. Way off base with it’s projections, even Stanford is upset it’s name is attachd. When you use the returns Calpers has historically achieved, even through the slumps, Calpers is financially sound, not under water. I don’t think we would have any of this argument if people educated themselves on the issue. What am I saying, that would require thought instead of just emotion.
The title of JD on that post was a copy/paste mistake.
It is Tom still!
Tough Love,
I respect and agree with your opinion. I am, by no means, supporting salaries of $300,000 although I am not entirely convinced that these are totally accurate – hence my comment about the auto unions. These figures are created by adding in total cost, sometimes over years, to the FD. And as much as I understand that firefighters are the beneficiaries of the union-agreed salaries, this isn’t the case statewide, let alone nationwide. Mr Sattui’s letter undoubtedly attacked the career, not the salaries of 1 or 2 specific individuals.
What I am against is the absurd generalization that some people are implying. Most firefighter/paramedics get the same salary as I do, or similar. And I really don’t appreciate people making completely unjust and ill-informed comments about the profession. What we do as firefighters or paramedics on a daily basis is, as far as I’m concerned, irrelevant to the problem of unions’ financial decisions.
Thanks for your reply Tough Love. It’s nice to have some sense here!
Tom, I am not against ANY individual Public Sector worker. Just like in the Private sector, I’m sure ther are both hard workers & slackers (and of course those granted disability pensions for little more than a hangnail).
My ire is at the Politicians that through corruption/incompetence, and the desire for campaign funds and election support, approved a pension/benefit system that is to way too generous, unsustainablle, and grossly unfair to private sector taxpayers who must fund 90% of it (yes they do).
By “way too generous”, I mean one that for a full career safety worker will pay 90% of final pay (COLA adjusted) with receipt beginning as early as age 50 (with 55 more common).
Those outside of Civil Service rarely get a pension greater than 1/3 their final pay and MUST save a substantial portion of their take home pay to survive in retirement. With Public Sector cash pay ALONE now in excess of Private sector pay (per the US Gov’t BLS), these excessive pension cannot be justified. Why should Private sector taxpayers fund Public sector pension so generous that the recipients are absolved from any need to save from personal income?
Although the politicians & your Union are to blame, you guys are the beneficiaries of these underhanded deals and therefore the place to look for reductions/givebacks in pension & benefits.
Here’s another way to look at what I mean by “too generous” …
After deducting the interest accumulated value of your own contributions, the cost to taxpayers of a COLA-adjusted pension to a Policeman/Fireman (with a 3% at 50 pension formula) who retires at age 55 with 30 years of service is MORE THAN 5 times greater than the employer- paid-for cost of the typical pension provided to a private sector worker retiring at the SAME age, with the SAME years of service, and with the SAME pay. And, the 5X multiple would be even higher if he retired earlier, at age 50-54 with 30 years of service.
Such a generous pension would bankrupt ANY Private corporation that offered it …..and it WILL eventually bankrupt all the States, Cities, and Towns that offer it ….. unless significantly reduced for CURRENT as well as NEW employees.
There are NO OTHER effective options (short of a financially equivalent increase in employee contributions …. to 30-40% of pay).
As a Private Sector taxpayer who contributes to funding this I have a very real right to complain.
‘Fed Up’,
I’m not entirely sure of the point you’re making.
Are you against ALL public sector workers?
Are you against all Fire Departments?
Are you against all EMS systems or police forces?
Are you just against Californian firefighters?
I think what you haven’t considered is being ‘against’ (if it has to be anyone) the people that dish out and agree the claimed salaries Mr Sattui outlined.
I have never asked for a rise in salary. In the same way auto unions don’t get paid nearly $100 per hour, like some people suggested, we don’t make hundreds of thousands of dollars a year. It’s just not happening outside of maybe Department Chiefs and other incredibly senior, long-serving personnel. Sure, if you filter in the costs of our health/dental and all the rest of it, the COST may come near the hundreds, but it’s certainly not salary or cash we see.
You need to figure out what it is you’re arguing and why.
Surely you’re not fighting out against all firefighters, paramedics and police officers – the Public Sector. If you are, I’m not sure you’ll find too much support.
Your problem is with the high salaries of a select few (that I’ve never met nor heard of), and it’s not those professionals who draw up their salaries. It’s the people you, the public, vote for that pay them, so write a letter to their office.
Alternatively, if you really do feel that every firefighter, paramedic and EMT in the country is guilty of abusing the system, next time you call an ambulance, tell them that too.
You’ll find they act as professionally as always, dismiss your outlandishly misguided opinion and give you the best medical attention you could ask for. Heck, they may even save your life.
Perhaps we could have a look at your job and salary and see how much we think you’re worth, and how much we can try to demean your career.
I mean, I may have no clue about your job but I’ll return you the same courtesy as you have me, and have a go anyway.
Stay safe F.U.
Ooophs, got that link wrong.
Here’s the correct one:
http://www.californiapensionreform.com/?p=902
Tom, Check out the skit on Saturday Night Live (all about how Public Sector workers have abused the system).
You’ll love it.
Tell me what you think.
Here’s the link:
http://www.watchsonomacounty.com/2010/04/cities/sattui-responds-to-boycott/
And unless Los Angeles is what you consider “Timbucktoo”, perhaps you should have a think before you post meaningless sentences.
As for the elegantly put “BS”, it’s all fact. $35,089 is my exact base salary as a paramedic. This rises to around $42,000 but may be lower depending on the year.
As much as I appreciate your opinions on what my salary might be, I can’t help but feel I have a more accurate picture.
Thanks for your input ‘Fed Up’
‘Fed Up’,
Sorry, but I DO WORK IN CALIFORNIA. I have worked in California for 3 years as a paramedic. I live in California, I was born in California and so were the previous four generations of my family. Not only that, but I work for a major city FD on the coast. Far from your hick 20-person town.
Ed, You still don’t get it .
There simply isn’t sufficient money to continue to pay ANYWHERE NEAR the total compensation packages awarded today.
It isn’t a question of IF it will fail, but when. Wouldn’t it be better to make the adjustment to something sustainable in an organized fashion than waiting until the axe falls?
Unbeknownst to them, the BIGGEST losers will include the safety workers with less than 15 years of service … as those already retire and those near retirement will refuse to give up anything (throwing those behind them under the bus) …. leaving nothing for this group, even their own contributions.
The taxpayers aren’t going to pick up the tab … they’ve had enough. They’ll simply move away.
LA, SF, SD, etc. may wind up like Detroit (rapidly being abandoned) if change is not thoughtfully addressed….. and SOON.
Tom, This article was about California, not some hick 20-person town in Timbucktoo. I’ll bet your $38K averages in the minor “stipends” of Volunteer Firemen.
You’d be hard pressed to find California Firefighters in any major local in CA even with only 5 years service making k=less than $100K.
So …give uo on the BS (it ain’t working)
Overpaid, Over-pensioned, Over-benefited …. Significant reductions are needed NOW !
JB, I can understand your frustration with the current system of retirement for firefighters and police and your belief that it is unsustainable. Perhaps it is and we will all find that out in the future and I am sure that there will be some adjustments. It sounds like you are not a public safety employee so you really don’t have the emotional and physical investment. You did not choose public safety as your career but if you had, you most likely would be upset and would be fighting back to. But I did get the hint that you may not be to happy with your own retirement options, perhaps you should have taken the public safety career route. It all boils down to are own personal choices.
Andrea,
I cannot believe that you feel it appropriate to say that you pay our salaries and that we work for you.
You are clearly not only misguided, ill-informed and downright ignorant, but your disrespect for the services your Fire Department provide is astonishing. And just for your information, working as a medic in the private sector does not mean you don’t serve the public. Private EMS providers are contracted to the 9-1-1 emergency services to provide exactly the same care as the FD.
We, as Fire Department staff, LOVE to work for you. It’s our job. No one said we didn’t like it. What we don’t like, is when we turn out to help a total stranger, and they hold the disrespect that you do.
Sure, it was our choice to do this job. Everybody chooses their career, even if they don’t like it. And this ‘most dangerous job’ crap is completely invalid. There’s always going to be a more dangerous job. We don’t think that we encounter more danger that army personnel or even cops. But I think most people would be shocked at what we do encounter, especially seeing as our sole purpose is to help whoever we go to.
As for everybody else fighting Mr Sattui’s pathetic battle, I agree that some of the reactions on this forum on the ‘for’ firefighters side are a little aggressive, and yes, even childish. But really, are you all surprised?
You might think that paramedics and firefighters are not as heroic as oil riggers, loggers or US Marines, but I don’t know any firefighter that calls him/herself a hero.
We’re proud of the work we do. I can honestly say that I save someone’s life nearly everyday. I’m not being big-headed or self-righteous, but it’s a truthful fact. Because of that, I feel I do earn all of my $35,000 salary.
And, not that it matters to this argument, but when I saw this post, I was on the computer on station after I’d finished my shift. I wasn’t ready to go home yet, because I was too upset to bring back what I felt to my wife and kids. I had just had a four-year-old boy die quite literally in my arms after I’d done all I could (all anyone could, for that matter). After I washed his blood off my face, I found out that a patient I treated last week – an 18-year-old boy with a scholarship to his dream university to play basketball – had been paralyzed from the neck down after a car wreck. Now, I’m not trying to shock, or be deliberately gruesome, not at all. But after that, the last thing I needed was to read Mr Sattui’s attack on the job I do. To everyone believing that some of the firefighters on here overreacted, please bare in mind that they may have been in a similar situation. Do some research on our jobs – you might find you respect us more when you know what we do.
For ‘Joe T’ and those of you wanting the honest facts, here they are: the average salary of a firefighter/paramedic is $38,932.
Please see http://swz.salary.com/salarywizard/layouthtmls/swzl_compresult_national_HC07000189.html for verification.
$100,000 per year is RARE. More than that is VERY RARE.
$300,000+ is unheard of.
That would make the average salary of a firefighter/paramedic a mere 13% of this supposed person’s salary.
Those are the facts.
I suggest that if you want to complain about people being overpaid, turn your attention to the NFL. I think you’ll find a paramedic’s salary is perfectly just.
No, according to CNBC, firefighters have the most stressful job in America. I didn’t see wine making on that list.
Your claim that this is the most stressful job is over blown and simply wrong.
Randy…
One doesn’t need to be a firefighter to have an opinion on this topic. Public safety is on the public payroll. We all pay taxes and we’re all entitled to an opinion as to how they should be spent. It doesn’t make us self-serving or short-sighted.
Our current system of retirement for public safety… that’s fire and police, is unsustainable. It isn’t a question of whether or not you deserve such a retirement… it’s a question of whether or not we can afford it.
We all know your job is demanding. We all know that it’s inherently dangerous and the likelihood of injury is high. We all know you make sacrifices to have this job. Having said that, your job is in extremely high demand. How many hundreds or thousands of applicants to you get for each open position?
Randy… there are plenty of us who would risk our butts for 50% of salary at retirement. Most of us are looking at something far less lucrative… if we ever get to retire at all. I’d be willing to wager that if your next job opening posted a 50% retirement, the lines for that job would be just as long.
Hey Fed Up, sounds to me that you are just grumpy and jealous. I don’t appreciate being called ignorant by you. I am well aware of the costs that it takes to pay the salaries and pensions of the people that saves lives and property. I did the research and I believe for the most part that it is worth it. The only concern I have is perhaps the 3% @50 plan can be changed to 3% @55. These men and women have the most streefull job in the Nation and they deserve to be paid well. Enough said!
This is in response to Randy:
We’re very weary of the hero crap (yes crap).
And Quoting: “Hey Fed Up, would you risk your own butt day in and day out for 50% of your salary when you retire? ”
Whats the matter, the whole world should have the responsibility to contribute to their own retirement via PERSONAL SAVINGS … except you guys ?
And WE, via our taxes, should pay for YOURS as well as having to fund our own?
Your “entitlement mentality” is disgusting. It makes me want to puke !
This is in reply to the Fed Up comments. Your point is self serving (as a tax payer) and narrow sighted. Have you been a firefighter? Have you ever risked your life for someone that you have never met? Do you get woke up in the middle of the night and 5 minutes later find yourself inside a flaming building where the toxic gases could kill you if you breathed them in? Just today, CNBC did an online story on FIREFIGHTERS having the Number 1 stressfulful job in America. Check it out at CareerCast.com and see for yourself.
The point here is that firefighters and police officers don’t have a desk job. They have jobs that can KILL them! The risker the job, the higher the pay. Instead of picking on the people that will actually save your life and property, perhaps you should go after those SEC government employees that were to busy downloading porn instead of looking out for the outlaws on Wall Street.
Hey Fed Up, would you risk your own butt day in and day out for 50% of your sarary when you retire? If your answer is yes, then please go to your nearest fire department and sign up to work and make sure that you tell them that retirement benefits is not important to you. Oh by the way, you have to be in good shape and be willing to work weekends and holidays and respond back to work even when you are on vacation. You also have to have a degree in fire science, EMT certified, have a class B drivers license, Haz-Mat operational and pass both a written and oral exam.
How in the world can anyone attack a profession by wanting to reduce pay and benefits that you have not experienced for yourself, first hand? That is much like being a back seat driver, unless you want to drive??
Quoting Sam …\I agree with Michael that the 3% @ 50 PERS pension is not fitting for todays type of economy. But I would NOT like to see it reduced any lower than 3% @55.\
You may not be a firefighter, but either you are ignorant of the enormous cost of this pension or I suspect someone in your family is a firemen/policeman, etc.
So, we should fund a pension to provide a Cost-of-living-increased pension of 90% of pay ?
Years ago, people were told of the \3 legged stool\ to provide for their retirement. Each of the legs tended to provide about 1/3 of retirement needs. The 3 legs were (1) A pension, (2) Social Security, and (3) personal savings.
It actually works fairly well. And, at least for the private sector, the 1/3 from the Pension leg (for those that still have pensions) is just about what they get after a full career in one place (a rarely today). If this Private sector worker wants to live in reasonable comfort in retirement (and might I point out that THEIR retirement will begin at 65+, not 50 or 55) the 1/3 leg from personal savings is VERY important.
So why shouldn’t firemen have the same obligation …. to save from personal income for the own retirements. A COLA-adjusted pension absolves them of ANY \need\ to save …. taxpayers instead being told to pick up the Fireman’s share (all while having to fund their own).
This is patently unfair to taxpayers. The full career Civil Servants pension should NEVER exceed 50% of pay … and less if they can begin collecting (an unreduced amount) before age 65.
Quting Tim Scoriso …”Be pissed off at the unions and the politicians and all the special interest groups that are responsible for your outrage.”
Tim, you are 100% correct ….but as the “recipiants” of the excessive pay, pensions, and benefits, we need to do our best to reduce these amounts.
The answer, which we WILL get to in short order is a reduction in the pension formula for FUTURE years of service for CURRENT (yes CURRENT) employees…… no OTHER optins will work.
In addition, there will be substantial reductions in retiree healthcare subsidies.
The enormous “wealth transfer” from Private Sector taxpayers to public sector retirees & employees is coming to an end.
Someone wrote about the private sector vs. the public sector and made a point that public employees have rich salaries and pensions compared to the private sector. I say to that person, go ahead and privitize firefighters and police officers and then see how much it will cost you. You public servant haters need to re-think why you are so upset. Deep down you know it’s not the (individual) public safety employees fault of how much they get paid, the amount of overtime that they get, and the retirements that they have. Be pissed off at the unions and the politicians and all the special interest groups that are responsible for your outrage. Stop trying to protray the firefighters as ungrateful and undeserving people. So to all you revolting tax payers out there…let’s fire all government employees and replace them with private contractors and see where it gets us. It would just bring more organized labor unions into play. Oh yea, the private sector is the way to go. Sure thing buddy!!
I am not a firefighter nor am I real close to any, but I have to defend them as a common tax payer. This whole thing of lashing out at the firefighters is absurd because it is not thier fault. They are hired to do a job and they do it well and they are paid for that job. Some are paid better than others depending if they are in a union and the size of the city or district in which they work. If you are upset at the unions and want to take them on, then go for it but do it in a way that does not attack the firefighters.
I agree with Michael that the 3% @ 50 PERS pension is not fitting for todays type of economy. But I would NOT like to see it reduced any lower than 3% @55. Make them work an extra 5 years because then they would be reducing the funding liability of the local city or district and they could still achieve 90% salary if they worked 30 years. The main issue here is to have the firefighter retire out before they become to old and pose a safety liability to thier city, district and to thier fellow workers. That is reasonable and as a tax payer, I would support it because I support the men and women who serve as firefighters and so should you.
Dario Sattui is on the right track. Our elected official who are supposed to be representing the general population are more representative of the public unions and the employees in them than of the overall general population itself.
In private industry, one will not find a company where they can work for 20 years and retire with a good pension (which by the way is better than the same worker putting away the same amount of money into a 401K + social security + medicare), work for 25 years are retire with a better pension, work for 30 years and retire with more tax free (yes, a lot of public pension payments are tax free)money than they earned as when they were working. If private industry operated this way, there would no longer be a private industry. It would be bankrupt and completely outsourced to other countries.
Think about this next time when you hear about your unionized public sector workers (any of them) approving another “multi year contact” which is really a guaranteed raise. The unionized workers are guaranteed what the private workers can no longer afford to pay and no longer receive.
A pension should be based upon total salary earned over the working career times number of years. It should not be based on the highest 1-3 years of a workers career.
And how dare any of you compare what you do with what our US soldiers do to protect our rights 24/7 every day for us. They do not receive anything near what our high and mighty safety workers do at the end of their careers. They receive less money per year, much lower pensions and the medical benefits after they retire are not any better than what a private sector worker will receive on medicare.
So basically what you are all saying is that the American PUBLIC SECTOR WORKERS (regardless of their job) are better than the rest of the country.
I really don’t see a lot of “bashing” of public safety personnel on these comment threads. I see a lot taxpayers who feel that these employees are overcompensated for the job they do. That is their right and they should not face ad hominem attacks for expressing that opinion.
I am among the group that feels firefighters and police officers are overcompensated in California, nevertheless, I do not think that wages/benefits should be reduced to minimum wage or anywhere near it. I think there could be a balanced approach. Let’s not forget that 3% @ 50 didn’t start popping up until the early 2000s when Cal-Pers had excess earnings that they thought would be sustainable. What would be so wrong with 3% @ 55? Unfortunately, some kind of reasonable compromise is difficult to reach because the unions have no interest in an interest-based approach to compromise and resort to mob-like intimidation and scare tactics.
The “bad guy” in this story is not Sattui nor the firefighters, it is the unions
This response is to the bashing of firefighters by someone named Andrea. Your comments seem to me to be self serving. Have you ever needed medical attention in the field or have you ever had a fire? Cause if you had, you would have first hand knowledge that a firefighters job is not an easy one. Those of us that serve our communities with honor and dignity deserve more respect than what you have given us. I know that some of us have been a little mouthy on these blogs but that should not take away from the fact that while we are on the job, we save lives and property and play an important role in our society. Remember, none of us are perfect and sometimes we even insert a foot into our mouth, just like that wine maker guy did. Also remember that WE are always here for you and your love ones no matter how many time you bash us!
Hey Andrea…your ‘note’ is idiotic. I live in Sacramento and many businesses in the downtown area are going under because the furloughed state workers aren’t spending their money anymore. They might work for you and you might pay their wages, but they buy the products produced by the public sector.
All those people who are angry at the firefighters for responding to the Sattui remarks need to realize that they did not initially attack him and his lively hood. What Sattui did was ignite a firestorm because of the way he went about it by lumping all the public safety together by saying that they are over paid and lazy. He may have a beef with the American Canyon firefighters and/or the City, but there was a better way to go about it. To me, that was a local issue of his that could have been expressed at a council or board meeting and not in the press. What did he expect? What did his defenders expect? The tax angry public is in a revolt, okay, we get it. But all you angry tax payers have to realize that the firfighters and police pay the same taxes as you. Now, the firefighters and police who make the $150,000 a year plus, and retire with with more than 100% of their salaries are the ones who are ruining it for all the rest of the “not so fortunate” public safety employees. Yes some of the unions are out of control, but not all of them. So let’s dont throw the baby out with the bath water here. Because of Sattui’s poor judgement, it seems like all the firfighters and police have been thrown under the bus and that is why this matter is no longer a local issue. And that is why you are seeing all kinds of emotion comming from the firfighters, childish as it may seem to you…the tax payer at large, the firefighters are just as concerned as you are.
Police and Firefighters get the compensation they do because the deserve it. Those of you who did not join our ranks probably said “Never in a million years.” Go ahead, try and cut the pay, raise the age of retirement and see what you get when you need a cop or firefighter. Who wants 55-60 year-old cops and firefighters showing up at dangerous calls? These are young men’s jobs. Most cops and firefighters over 50 have either broken bodies, tortured minds, PSTD syndrome, substance abuse problems etc…And you want us to come to work everyday for what? 40-60K ? Any new bills passed in the house will cost you more in the future. It’s so few that actually retire with 90%. That goes to the few who started young. Most guys start at 25-26 years old. 3%@50 gets them 75%. Raise the retirement age to 55 and all of them will get 90%, it’ll just take 5 years longer…
Any bad behavior on the part of Dario has been eclipsed by the fire fighters childish response. Not only have they shown us a fairly ugly side of public safety, but they’ve brought to light their unbelievable compensation packages and retirement plans.
Glad I’m not the moron of a union representative that allowed this PR nightmare to happen (and continue happening).
Good for Dario! Speak the truth Brother!
NOTE: To all public servants, You work for us! We pay your salary! If you don’t like it, get a job in the private sector where you actually have to work hard and you won’t be able to hide behind your union bosses skirts!!!
Public Sector Unions must be outlawed.
What the hell is wrong with you? You are a disappointment to all of us.
A firefighters job is endless. It’s one of the most rewarding jobs on earth and I am the proudest of my son for the community service if gives everyday as he places in life in harms way.
Eighty percent of the calls firefighters respond to are for emergency medical care. The calls include motor vehicle accidents, heart attacks, strokes, home accidents, and other medical and trauma related incidents.
When my son is not responding to emergency medical calls and saving life’s he is involved in a variety of other activities such as providing emergency preparedness community education, public service work, building inspections and station and apparatus maintenance and putting out fires.
I recently read as story about a “Day in the Life of a Firefighter” by Jim Hartman of the Rochester Fire Department. Please read and appreciate what a firefighter is all about.
http://symbioticpublishing.com/DayInTheLife.html
I think he is back swimming a bit now. I think it was pretty clear he was dissrespecting and attacking firefighters by saying they sleep 1/3 of the time, are bored so they get second jobs, etc, etc….
Tom’s comments above are right on. Dario has a forked tounge. If anything Dario, have the balls to stick by your first letter instead of trying to go back on what you said. Now you have even lost more of my respect….
So what are the real figures? Are fire fighters in Napa making $164k on average or not? He has a real point if his figures are accurate.
One or two firefighters saying they make $34 or $50k (with or without overtime, bonuses and benefits?) is not exactly relevant for a rational evaluation of the situation.
Neither is an EMT saying he works hard or in a hazardous environment. A lot of people work dangerous jobs and almost all of them do it by choice. I know fire fighters work hard but that’s irrelevant.
What are the facts? If Sattui is wrong then riding him out on a rail makes sense. Let’s keep this discussion rational.
As someone in the middle here, I find the irrationality of the fire fighter folks and their appeal to emotion, ad hominem attacks and sometimes just venting anger to lack any real compelling element.
Let’s get back to the facts.
Mr. Sattui:
This is a battle that you WILL not win. If you think that your local cronies have your back on the issue of attacking firefighters and police officers salaries and benefits, think again. You are the one who signed the letter to the editor, not them. This thing has reached the world platform through Twitter and Facebook and is picking up momentum by the minute. Soon, no one in the wine industry will openly admit that they agree with you because it would be risky for their own business.You now are wearing the scarlet letter. This issue has exploded in you face and we are now watching the “fire glow” of ones own self destruction by means of stupidity.
I am shocked at some of the comments Mr winemaker (Sattui) left in his article about overpaid firefighters, and public safety personnel. He has no idea how difficult a process it is to get into the public safety field, let alone doing the job itself. The job is stressful, dangerous, and they are MANY sacrifices which have to be made in the business, none of which he obviously understands. He is an ignorant man if he thinks people in the public safety field don’t deserve every penny they get. I HOPE YOUR WINE BUSINESS GOES UNDER MR WINEMAKER!!
Firefighter and Police Officers aren’t given enough support for what they do, and should be commended more for what they endure and sacrifice for the communities they serve. I think Mr rich winemaker (Sattui) should think about his comments before he open his BIG IGNORANT mouth!!
How quickly we forget. *sigh*
The Fallen Firefighter Memorial in Colorado Springs honors the thousands of firefighters who have died in the service of our citizens including the 347 who died on 9/11. http://www.iaff.org/hs/ffm/about/index.aspx
Most people who get the idea that they should be a firefighter because of the good pay and benefits see the error of their logic the first time they have to crawl blind through a burning home to look for a stranger.
The only reason to become a firefighter is because you have a servants heart. When Mr.Sattui is done slapping our faces we’ll still be here. Waiting and serving.
“I should have been a firefighter.” I think not Mr. Sattui. I think not.
I am outraged that a rich wine maker is complaining about firefighters being over paid and having an expensive retirement plan. Mr. Wine Maker, you and perhaps some of your rich friends may have earned your money the hard way with stress laden days and sleepless nights…and I can admire that. As firefighters, we did not make the choice to work in the private sector and be in control of our own destinies. No, we made the choice to serve our communties in order to protect the lives and property’s of others, including business owners. And yes, we have stress laden days and sleepless nights also and we will never be rich because of it. Face it, without us, there would be chaos and destruction and it would be more difficult for you to make a living (selling your goods to customers) and living the American dream. The fact is that you need us and you need us to do a good job. Public safety services is like any other business, we need to stay competitive in salaries and benefits, just like you Mr. Wine Maker. You would not just give your wine away now would you? Of course not, because you have to keep up with your competitors. So do we, it is just business. If we don’t stay competitive, then you as a customer of ours will get the type of low paying service that you want to pay for, and I am not sure it would be what you are use to. So be carefull for what your movement is trying to accomplish because you just might start the domonos to move forward in a direction that could have a destroying outcome to it. This is not a scare tactic, it is what it is. Remember…when the WTC buildings were collapsing and people were running out, the firefighters and police were the ones running in! Next time when you open your mouth to speak about an issue that you are miffed about, drink a glass of wine, chill a bit, think twice of what is upsetting you. Then perhaps you will speak without tearing down an entire service that goes the distant to save poeple like you!
I also like to add that the “Facts” post with statistical top-tens couldn’t be less meaningful.
Those sorts of polls rank ‘danger’ by the most reported injuries and deaths in each job.
Store cashiers injuries will be reported because the police will be called and they’ll go to court to testify. If a pilot crashes, or a roofer falls off of the top of someone’s house and gets injured or dies, it is reported, often in the news.
As a paramedic, I get assaulted more times in a month than I could bother to keep track of. As I said before, being bitten, slapped, punched, kicked and threatened is a regular problem. Something like being stuck with a used heroine needle belonging to an HIV positive patient will be reported, but not in polls.
Think about it. Please.
I am a full-time firefighter/paramedic. I work, on average, 40 hours a week. I earn $35,000 a year and I have to kiss my wife and kids whenever I can because I sometimes don’t see them for 3 or 4 days a week.
I’m not sure you, Mr Sattui, have ever experienced the feeling you get when your 4-year-old girl looks you in the eye and says “Promise you’ll come home?” when you know you cannot possibly promise.
I am underpaid, but I love this job, so I don’t mind. But the thing is, loving this job takes its toll when you spend 12 hours a night being spat at, punched and kicked by drunks, bitten by heroin addicts and returning to see that a man from a cushy winery somewhere has sat down (when of course, he’s made some time in his schedule) and spun out the biggest load of crap I’ve ever read.
$357,000 is a LOT of money. I’ve never met a firefighter on that salary, but if I did, the first thing I would ask them is how much overtime they do.
No matter how much you argue that your “beef” is not with firefighters, I fear it is. Your letter was not regarding tax, budgeting and council management; it was about firefighters sleeping all the time, doing nothing. You also accused firefighters of “getting what they can” at the same time blaming the council. Which it it, sir?
- “I respect and deeply appreciate their hard work, the risks that they take for all our safety, and I honor them for doing so.”
That seems to deeply contradict these statements from your original letter:
-”they work only two days a week (a third of which they sleep)”
-”Of course, most of them supplement that high pay with second jobs to allay the boredom, as they have so much free time on their hands.”
Well, Mr Sattui. You wonder how much we really know about what is going on with the extravagant budgets in Napa County.
I don’t think any of us are unsure about how much you know about the Fire Department.
It saddens me that people are agreeing with your views on what we do.
You’re most welcome to come out for a few night shifts in my ambulance. I’ll warn you though – you may not eat for 10 or 12 hours and you certainly won’t sleep.
Please don’t throw all firefighters and police officers under the bus. In some small cities and counties, public safety personnel make less than $50,000 a year and they do the same work and respond to the same type of calls as the workers you are referring to who make 3 time that. This is NOT a one size fits all issue. When I started out 30 plus years ago as a firefighter, I was not doing it for the money or for the retirement benefits, I was doing it because I wanted to help my community. The public safety people that I know and work with have a terrible retirement and can barely pay their bills because of low salaries. So just be careful when you condemn all of us so called “Eating From The Public Trough” employees.
Can someone please clarify…
Market forces are not justifying these
high levels of compensation. True?
Do we have plenty of qualified candidates for these positions who would accept lower compensation?
James with regards to your comments (see below), you are RIGHT ON! I say dismantle unions! Firefighters had a good for so long and are afraid—they should be. They have been exposed!
((((((((((((
James comments: “Geez, I wonder why the firefighers are so sensitive about this issue. Maybe because they know, thanks in part to Sattui, that the taxpayers (many of whom have taken a beating financially for the last 2 years…no job security, no guaranteed lifelong pensions/health benes, making $50,000/year), are aware what firefighers make and how patently absurd it is.
As to the “extreme danger” they face “every day”… a notion which another poster obliterates above…ask a serviceman or woman returning from “real” life-threatening danger in Iraq or Afganistan how much of their huge salary they’ve managed to sock away for that new BMW. Ask a teacher how he/she enjoys making ends meet on $45,000/year after teaching inner city kids to read in 3rd grade.
And finally, to those out there posting about the unfairness of Prop 13, as if to suggest the “rich” aren’t paying enough in taxes…for once in your life, go out and earn some money, then fork over +/-45% of it to the US Gov’t, the State of CA, and to your local county tax collector (after you buy a $500,000 median-price house) and tell me how great it would be if we could just RAISE TAXES MORE so we can pay firefighters $250,000/year. Funny how not living off the hard work of others (like Sattui) brings focus to these issues.
Dario wins here — the unions thuigs and firefighters not so much. Shame on them! Time to dismantle Unions! Outdated and overpaid!
Please don’t compare firefighters/emeregency technicians to teachers. Last time I checked, most of the kids these days can barely read at their appropriate grade level. So let’s not take that route, shall we?
The day the fire Dept called and I heard the name of the person on the other end was like a nightmare. He was calling to tell me that my husband was in the Burn Unit at SF General
He spent some time there with a few other Firefighters. Where people think that every firefighter is rolling in dough makes me want to puke. I sent my kids to grammar schools which required tuition but I took on a part time job to pay for it.
I do not want any harm for Mr Sattui but I am sure if he lost a crop he would be very very upset!.
Geez, I wonder why the firefighers are so sensitive about this issue. Maybe because they know, thanks in part to Sattui, that the taxpayers (many of whom have taken a beating financially for the last 2 years…no job security, no guaranteed lifelong pensions/health benes, making $50,000/year), are aware what firefighers make and how patently absurd it is.
As to the “extreme danger” they face “every day”… a notion which another poster obliterates above…ask a serviceman or woman returning from “real” life-threatening danger in Iraq or Afganistan how much of their huge salary they’ve managed to sock away for that new BMW. Ask a teacher how he/she enjoys making ends meet on $45,000/year after teaching inner city kids to read in 3rd grade.
And finally, to those out there posting about the unfairness of Prop 13, as if to suggest the “rich” aren’t paying enough in taxes…for once in your life, go out and earn some money, then fork over +/-45% of it to the US Gov’t, the State of CA, and to your local county tax collector (after you buy a $500,000 median-price house) and tell me how great it would be if we could just RAISE TAXES MORE so we can pay firefighters $250,000/year. Funny how not living off the hard work of others (like Sattui) brings focus to these issues.
Just so EVERYONE understands, this is the latest job anouncement from the City of Santa Rosa Fire Department for ENTRY LEVEL FIREFIGHTER directly from the recruitment webstites.
You be the judge!
Salary: $33.86 – $40.65 Hourly
$5,869.00 – $7,046.00 Monthly
$70,428.00 – $84,552.00 Annually
Job Type: Full-Time
Location: City Hall, 100 Santa Rosa Ave Santa Rosa, California
Department: Fire Dept
Qualifications:
Ability to: Learn rules, regulations and operational procedures of the Fire Department; learn firefighting methods and techniques; learn First-Responder medical aid and CPR life-saving procedures; learn hazardous material first responder operational level methods and techniques; demonstrate a high degree of mechanical aptitude; learn the operating and mechanical principles of fire apparatus and equipment; learn to drive and operate effectively and safely the full range of fire apparatus and equipment used by the Department; learn to perform field calculations of hydraulics for the proper and effective operations of equipment; learn the operation of firefighting equipment; learn the street location and physical layout of the City and major traffic and fire hazards; think and act quickly in emergencies; work effectively as a member of a team; understand and follow oral and written directions promptly and accurately; communicate orally effectively to individuals or in a group setting; learn through structured lectures in a classroom setting and through oral instruction in an on-the-job setting; comprehend and make inferences from written material; learn to operate and enter data into a computer terminal, personal computer or keyboard device; produce written documents using proper grammar and punctuation; deal courteously and effectively with the public; establish and maintain cooperative relationships with those contacted in the course of work; learn to instruct in a classroom setting.
Experience and Education: Any combination equivalent to experience and education that could likely provide the required abilities would be qualifying. A typical way to obtain the abilities would be: Experience – Full-time or part-time work experience of sufficient length to demonstrate good work habits; Education – Equivalent to completion of the twelfth grade.
License or Certificate: Incumbents must either possess a Firefighter I Certificate issued by the California State Fire Marshal or have successfully completed a California State Fire Marshal approved Firefighter I Academy, and possess and maintain throughout employment an EMT-1 certification. Incumbents must be physically capable of operating fire apparatus and emergency vehicles in a safe manner, including during emergency operation and response, and shall be required to pass a State of California DMV medical exam and shall obtain and maintain a valid California Class B motor vehicle operators license. Additionally, incumbents shall be required to obtain and maintain EMT-D Certification.
SALARY INCREASE: Salary increases from one step to the next may be granted on the basis of Merit once each year on the employee’s anniversary date.
OVERTIME: Overtime is paid at the rate of 1½ times the regular hourly rate of pay.
RETIREMENT: PERS for Local Safety Members, 3% at age 50 formula with single highest year final compensation.
VACATION: Five shifts paid vacation each year for first 4 years of service; 8 shifts paid vacation for 5 through 11 years of service; and 10 shifts paid vacation each year for 12 through 24 years of service; 12.5 shifts paid vacation for 25+ years of service.
HOLIDAYS: Included in work schedule.
SICK LEAVE: Non-management fire suppression personnel earn sick leave at the rate of one-half (½) shift of sick leave for each month of service. A sick leave retirement buy back program is available.
WORKERS’ COMP.: Workers’ Compensation benefits are provided under Section 4850 of the Labor Code.
SALARY CONTINUATION: City contributes premium towards Long-Term Disability Insurance.
HEALTH INSURANCE:City provides health insurance for employees and their dependents through the PERS Health Benefits Program. The PERS Health Benefits Program offers a variety of different health plans in which employees and their dependents may enroll. Employees are provided with a monthly allowance to pay their health premium. Employee is responsible for the monthly premium difference between the allowance and elected coverage.
DENTAL INSURANCE:City provides and contributes the monthly premium for Delta Dental plan for employee and dependents.
VISION CARE: City provides and contributes the monthly premium for vision care for employee and dependents.
LIFE INSURANCE: City provides and pays premium for $12,000 term life insurance policy. Employees have the option to purchase up to an additional $88,000 term life insurance.
BILINGUAL PAY: Employees designated as proficient in the Spanish language shall receive 3% additional pay.
HAZARDOUS RESPONSE TEAM: Employees who are part of the Hazardous Materials Response Team shall be paid an amount approximately 3% of their base pay.
EDUCATIONAL INCENTIVE PAY: Employees with six years of City employment are eligible for up to 4% educational incentive pay.
PROBATIONARY PERIOD:Non-management fire suppression personnel serve an 18-month probationary period.
WORK SCHEDULE: Non-management fire suppression personnel work three 24-hour shifts in a 9-shift cycle as follows:
W = On Duty O = Off Duty
W O W O W O O O O W O W O W O O O O W O W O W …
How many of you work full time? Every fire fighting family I know is a one income family, and still getting by. My wife and I both work more than full time and are barely getting by.
Thank you Mr Sattui for pointing out the elephant in the room…
It’s time for Public Safety to payback the public some of the overgenerous compensation packages that we can no longer afford
If not, remember Propitiation 13 and the Rose Bird Supreme Court, the tax payers can revolt and slay CALPERS
Hey Mr. “Ed” (no last name)
Are you seriously calling out firefighters and police for not posting their last names , while you hide behind anonymity yourself? Hypocritical much?
If fireman really had courage they would go on the record with their names instead of hiding behind women and children to post comments.
At least policman and prison guards actually dont get paid to sleep on the job.
$357,000 per year for a Vallejo firefighter, only a thief could justify this theft.
Its regrettable so many firefighters died on 9/11. However, like in war, this was partially due to the stupidity of some of the leaders and their inability to prepare for a plane to crash into a tall building —
the gravy train is over
brad’s comments were not said “out of context” he just was too stupid to realize that telling the truth would hurt his pension
@ford: You’ve asked us to do our own research, but you may want to hit the books yourself. SR firefighters do pay for a portion of their pension, but they do not pay for the entire required contribution nor do they pay a majority of their required contribution.
More importantly, even if you add up both the city contribution AND the employee contribution, it is not enough to cover the entire liability. There is not enough going into the system to cover the potential payments going out. This is called an unfunded liability and the city is on the hook to fund this not the employee.
This kind of public debate is important and I agree that we should all do our research. Everyone is entitled to an opinion on how one should be compensated and I tolerate that. I will not tolerate those who say we have no right to openly question the amount of tax payer money being used to compensate public employees.
@ Elizabeth: While it is true that public safety personnel often times pay into their pension funds through payroll deduction; it is not always the case. For example, the California Highway Patrol officers make ZERO contribution to their fund. Furthermore, even those that do pay in are not paying enough, that is why there is an unfunded liability…this is a fact.
Additionally, your assertion that firefighters make around $25/hour is ludicrous. Then you go on to say that this number includes benefits???? The number is closer to $30-$35/hour (BEFORE benefits) and does not include various premiums.
Firefighters are necessary and should be adequately compensated. But \adequately\ should be measured by the labor market and not what is arbitrarily determined by a labor union. An entry level firefighter should be paid no more than someone with equal training or education.
Just the Facts: While I do not appreciate your condescending response, I went ahead and did all of yoru research for you. This is an argument that is in bad taste for both of us, but the truth is that the number of deaths per 100,000 firefighters is between 11-12. (That includes full time and volunteer) There are approximately 1.15 million firefighters in America, unfortunately on average 100-120 die in the line of duty per year. This is fact; I included the 2008 USLD statistic below…which are nearly identical to the 1995 numbers you pointed out as being dated. If you look below you will see the number of firefighters in 2007 per NFPA that you were SURE couldn’t be 1.25 million, you were right there were only 1.15 million in 2007.
It is awful to argue about how many or how few die, 1 is too many. However, it a hard pill for us non-firefighters to hear the justification for the abnormally high compensation for a public servant is the extreme danger. When the FACTS show, while an extremely dangerous profession, there are many private industry jobs that are more dangerous. So, are we to take from this that the private sector employees are less important? I think we all know that is not the case…the answer is that the public unions are highway robbers, the governments are inept and the private sector has to deal with that pesky little problem of COMPETITION.
“NFPA estimates that there were approximately 1,148,800 firefighters in the U.S. in 2007. Of the total number of firefighters 323,350 or 28% were career firefighters and 825,450 (72%) were volunteer firefighters.”
http://www.nfpa.org/index.asp
1999-2008 Number of Firefighters: http://www.usfa.dhs.gov/statistics/firefighters/index.shtm
US Department of Labor, Bureau of Statistics- 2008 Dangerous Jobs Statistics http://www.bls.gov/news.release/pdf/cfoi.pdf
Elizabeth – As a fellow wife, THANK YOU! That was very well said!!
“Just the facts” your numbers are skewed. Most of those deaths are not fire ground related. They are a result of poor health/physical fitness, poor personal habits and training or incompetence (like driving code 3 in unsafe driving conditions). All of which would or could happen outside of the fire service. And as idealistic as you want to be, EMS IS a business where money and profit do matter, unless it is ALREADY SUBSIDIZED by the public, and then we are back to the public service argument that started this. Oh and as truely sad and horrific 9-11 was, the firefighters need to stop hanging on that crutch. They were not the only ones to lose “brothers” on that day. There were even some real “heros” that were not cops nor firefighters, but everyday “joe” citizens that risked and lost there lives to help others live (flight 93).
We need to get control of ALL government spending. If my pay was based on the afore mentioned list of most dangerous jobs, I’d be rich. Where can I get some of that great whine those fire fighters don’t want?
Hello – firefighters pay into their own retirement out of each paycheck, so stop whining that YOU, the taxpayer, are paying for their retirement. It is money that has comes out of pocket from the city employee and you know what, in Santa Rosa, city management employees have NO cap on their retirement!! Once a city employee retires, they are paid by PERS, not the city. Each year PERS pays out $10 billion to current retirees. Their CAFR reports they are $400 billion in the black. They are funded by their MEMBERS, not the city. Do some research yourselves and leave hardworking people alone. For those who think firefighters sit around and watch TV and cook, spend 48 hours straight with them on duty and then get back to me.
Has Dario Sattui or anyone dumping on the firefighter pay and retirement done their homework? Do you even know how much a firefighter or police officer makes per hour for their services? I doubt it. Most of the firefighters and police officers have even volunteered their services before ever being hired as a payed employee. Divide their monthly pay by the 240 hours per month. Remembering that overtime is not always guaranteed. It’s apx. and less than $30 per hour (closer to $25) depending on which city they work in. That amount is also including the retirement pkg,dental and medical insurances. Since when is that an astronomical amount of pay for what they do? They aren’t wealthy by any means. They don’t usually live long enough after they’ve retired to even enjoy their fair share of the retirement. These firefighters also pay into their retirement fund. AND It is considered a part of their income. It’s not just a freebee at the end of their careers. Just like their medical and dental is considered a part of their pay when they are hired. They are up at all hours of the night which gives them sleeping disorders. They rarely spend holidays and special events with their families. I am married to a firefighter in California and I can’t even remember the last time my husband was at one of my childrens sports events, birthday parties, or school band competitions. I can count how many Christmas’s Thankgiving’s and holidays over the years on my two hands. But when he comes home and tells me they saved a life or a home, it makes it all well worth it. My husband sleeps a lot on his days off and because so, it isn’t like we have four whole days off to dance and celebrate. He is recouping from a hard 48 hours at work. A lot of the firefighters end up suffering with asthma, allergies and arthritis throughout their bodies from the strainious work they do. And yes people are right, they chose this line of work. Someone has to do it! People also choose to be a DR. Most people can’t even stand the sight of blood and could never do these careers. I could never be a firefighter and see the grusome things he has to deal with. Mr.Dario Sattui, go by one of your local fire depts and just try on their turnouts. They are thick, heavy and hot and misserable to wear. Once you put them on over your clothes then imagine yourself in a burning fire for hours. Oh wait, don’t forget the oxygen tank hanging on your back !!!!!!! Then you tell me how much their pay and retirement is worth. What they do is very demanding and as far as I am concerned, what they do is priceless! Especially when YOU need them and their services. I’ve seen their job and I don’t want it. The career is so demanding and dangerous that I don’t even want my children to go into that field. I am very proud of my Husband and all the firefighters and police officers. I suggest the next time you pay hundreds of dollars to go watch your favorite basketball or football team bounce a ball around the court or field, you think about how much your local response teams are really worth to you. Don’t wait until you’ve needed them to pull your child from your swimming pool, doing CPR on your aging parent, running that heavy firehose inside the family room of your dream home, or putting out the flames of thousands of acres… so it doesn’t reach your favorite forest camping spot. When my husband leaves for work, we don’t even know if he will be coming back because of the job he does. Its very stressfull. I’ve had to give up my career to stay home with my kids because of the odd hours my husband has had to work over the years. So if you think his choice has made us wealthy, think again! Most of the time, we don’t even have time to sit down to a glass of wine together without the phone ringing calling him back to work. It just amazes me sometimes with the attitudes of people thinking their local response teams are sitting around a campfire singing joyously while counting all their riches.
I can’t believe someone said 9/11 was the best thing that could have happened to firefighter saleries. Good job Brad. That was a very inteligent statement (Pause – Not). 343 Never Forget… Brothers.
This is a new angle! The winery owners are pointing to the police/fire subsidization in order to get the attention off their own subsidization by society. After all, who has been providing health care and education to the illegals employed in the vineyards? And where has all of the water come from for the grapes?
Fact: While I appreciate a spirited discussion on the allocation of public funds and respect Dario’s opinion, the statistics you provided are flawed at best. First, the data is from 1995 not 2009. Second, as an aspiring FF, we have it drilled into us that 100+ FF’s die each year from duty related activities, a number that is admittedly too high. See provided link (http://www.usfa.dhs.gov/fireservice/fatalities/statistics/casualties.shtm)
This does not include the 350 + FF’s that perished on a single day in 2001. Nor does it take into account the absurdly high cancer rates for current and especially previous generations of FF’s.
Furthermore, the list states that carpenters suffer 96 fatalaties per year and number about 1.25 million according to your report. In 2007 not 1995, 118 FF’s lost their lives while on duty. Do you really think there are more than 1.25 million FF’s in this country? Even if we include volunteer departments, which receive little or no compensation and represent the overwhelming majority of departments, the number still falls below 1.25 million. With more fatalaties and less numbers, the risk index, which is what you are trying to prove, is higher for FF’s. I agree that compensation should not be based on danger. That said, EMS is not a business, it is a service. Profit is not the motive, saving lives is.
As the recipient of one of these Calpers public safety pensions beginning at 50 years of age, even I can agree that it’s the most unsustainable racket going today. I don’t make anywhere near what these firemen make, and my yearly pension contribution is staggering. Wake up taxpayers, this is outright thievery! Firemen are necessary – yes – but are they really worth $250,000 year/each?
Here are some facts for Lurch aka Darryl to look at.
http://www.indeed.com/salary/q-Firefighter-l-California.html
As a resident of Vallejo I agree that it is time openly discuss compensation for this type of work, HOWEVER Mr. Sattui’s comments were not just about the financial issues as he claims in his letter. His orginal letter came across as a personal attack, showing his dislike for firemen and safety professionals. No suprise he got the comments that he did. If he is so concerned about the infrastructure of Napa, why didn’t he contribute his share when buiding his 90 million dollar castle? How much more traffic will that bring to our crowded roads; how many more drunken tourists will motor down the highway possibly wrecking (and needing the services of those emergency workers). I’m sure the County of Napa would be glad to accept you help in improving the roadway, Dario. Time to shut up or put up.
When are the firefighters and police going to face the recession like the rest of us? Wake up people we can’t afford to pay them 90% pay with no service
Ah the blood of tyrants and rebels is good fertilizer for a democracy. With a little brown moth eating up all the vineyards I do not expect there to be money much longer in the valley for these kind of excesses. The power to tax must be just intoxicating.
Sattui is right – Public Service pensions are not sustainable. I’m against increasing taxes to make sure these folks get to keep their 90% retirement with full benefits.
Compensation should be based upon market demand, as noted, when their is a surplus of applicants, compensation should come down. Just like all of us in the private sector, we are all hungry for work, as a result, bids come down.
Regarding dangers of the job, just like our military, they all new the risks when they signed up, it is part of the job, it does not entitle you to bankrupt our city, county and state agencies.
Firemen and police should get just compensation when they are on active duty. However, when they are retired, the risk to their lives is no greater than any other retiree’s. It isn’t necessary for such a lucrative retirement compensation. Incidentally, my husband was a fire captain and had to retire 37 years ago due to a work related disability. His salary while working was $1,200. He received half that when he had to retire due to no fault of his own.
I see the battle between labor and capital is still going on.
I’m wondering if the people are allowed to determine how much Mr. Sattui may earn? Subtract the environmental damage of pesticides and fungicides on the whole region, as well as his subsidized water/power use… I think he owes a lot more than he’s paying in taxes.
I’d be willing to bet public safety workers also pay more percentage wise in taxes than Mr. Sattui does.
Also how does one judge the compensation for time these employees must spend away from family while on call?
Tell them to suck it up and point to people making less then them?
Did you ever think the people making less are grossly underpaid?
Stop using the high danger level as a reason for the compensation…it is just not true…other argument might be legitimate but this one is not: (per the 2009 U.S. Department of Labor as well as Forbes Magazine; http://www.bls.gov/iif/oshwc/cfar0020.pdf )
Deadliest Jobs in America:
1) Fisherman
2) Logger
3) Pilot
4) Iron Worker
5) Farmer
6) Garbage Collector
7) Roofer
8) Electrician
9) Commercial Driver
10) Taxi Driver
(Neither cops or fireman were in the top 20, FYI #20 is a Store Cashier)
Most Dangerous Jobs in America:
1) Non-construction Laborer
2) Construction Worker
3) Nurse
4) Truck Driver
5) Assembler
6) Carpenter
7) Janitor
8) Stocker/Checker
9) Cook
10) Store Cashier
So, you are doing no one any good by using this argument and a matter of fact you are devaluing the service fireman and police provide. No one wants to base there salaries off of your likelihood of your injury or death. I am thankful they are not hirer on the either list, and their position on these lists has no bearing on what I think they should be compensated. The easiest answer is that they should be compensated at a rate that will allow willing and qualified applicants to be hired. For the rest of us, this is how we have to run our businesses…surprisingly we do everything we can to become and remain profitable…very novel idea.
“Frank says: April 19, 2010 at 1:00 pmHas anyone pointed out that the American Canyon fire crew is made up largely of racial ethnic minorities?
Surely that can’t be a coincidence. Those who hold views like Mr. Sattui’s often harbor a latent or overt bigotry towards those they view as less worthy.
Has Mr. Sattui ever pulled a dead baby from a burning car and handed it to her mother? Until he has, he has no voice in determining what is “fair” compensation for firefighters and what is not.”
So you are suggesting that race biased hiring and employement practices are “fair”.
Our Miliatry personel do far more than that and are compensated far less what is your suggestion there?
Let’s face it, all public safety members are there to save insurance companies money. Industry will not come to your city if there is not a good fire rating. I do not understand why the insurance companies do not pay for part of the cost because public employees reduce the insurance companies bottom line when they safe a building or deter a crime. Open up your insurance bill and look at what you get for the money you spend and tell me your tax dollars spent on public safety aren’t worth it.
Firstly, Frank is not “Frank” but a female political agitator who self-identifies as a Sonoma “professor” and “muckraker.” She is disgusting as are her progressive views. She littered Sattui’s FB page with her drivel, spamming the same worn out liberal tirade over and over again. I finally had to block her posts.
I agree with Mr. Sattui, and have joined his FB page as a fan. I also noticed that the number of new Sattui FB fans increased quite a bit while I was reading the posts.
I think intelligent people are finally coming together to protest the unions’ financial stranglehold on our municipal coffers, and we are standing up and saying a very loud “hell no!”
Mr Sattui,
1. You are right, we do need a balance in our budgets.
2. You are wrong. You clearly attacked, simplified, and flippantly disregarded the fire profession and the compensation earned in your initial letter. I ask the brothers and sisters in Napa to take you on a 24 hour ride along to see the job first hand.
3. You are now back peddling. As a business owner who brazenly opened up a can of worms and had a bad reaction, you are now trying to salvage good will towards your business as it appears you bit off more than you could chew. As you ‘clarify’ your initial statement, don’t start taking on the American Canyon Council and comparing them to Vallejo. Vallejo had much larger problems, was more poorly mismanaged, and had the subsequent end result you pointed out. But don’t blame the PD and FD, they didn’t manage the money.
4. As far as salaries; any overtime incurred is at the approval of the finance department, means the firefighter is there, working (i.e. is not home, in Maui, or at a 2nd job), and is costing the City less because he/she is not a redundant negative fiscal source.
“While I respect the work they do and the inherent dangers, they are greatly overpaid, work only two days a week (a third of which they sleep) and get to retire at 50 years old at 90 percent of their pay after working 30 years.”
Blaming public safety wages on bankruptcies of municipalities? What about blaming the lack of fair taxation on prop 13? Perhaps if everyone paid their share we wouldn’t be in this mess in the first place.
Willing to work for less? Are you Sir willing to do your job for $15/hour? The wine would be more affordable and you would sell more. Or are you uniquely qualified to demand your salary and benefits from your shareholders/family/partners.
I know someone who would do your job for a fraction of your salary but they would not be any good at it. Luckily when someone does your job poorly, you lose a reputation. If firefighters do a job poorly…well…we all know what happens.
The burning baby from a car comment is over dramaticizing the countless hours of training and re-certification firefighters and EMTs must endure to meet federal, state and local standards in firefighting, emergency medical care, vehicle extrication, building code enforcement, swift water and confined space rescue, hazardous materials response…the list goes on and on.
And that “2 days a week…one third of it asleep” still works out to a 32 hour work week without the “sleeping” time.
Take out lunch and I imagine most of your staff works a similar week, but goes home to sleep every night.
You know not of what you speak Mr Sattui, stick to running the now overly crowded winery we used to love to visit.
I promise not to tell you how to run a winery.
My family and I stopped going in years ago.
I completely agree with Mr Sattui. Here we are in a state that can’t even support itself and firefighters and police officers are making more than high level business men. How long do you think firefighters actually work on one of their shifts? Most of the time is spent sitting around the fire station cooking and watching tv. They’re slowly helping drain the state dry. Hate to say it, and they know it, but 9/11 was the best thing that could have happened for firefighters salaries.
You can bet that I will be purchasing Sattui Wines. I think everyone who wants to send a message to these unions should do the same. The public should not have to put up with this form of posturing from our public servants. They are overpaid and their benefits are over the top by all standards. We are responsible for having allowed our servants to start telling “us” how things are rather than making it clear that we can vote out the officials that haven’t reigned them in.
Regardless of this man’s state of gratitude, can anyone refute the financial argument he puts forth? Bottom line, are there funds available to do this? If they are, is this the best use of these funds? Is there a good reason for the discrepency in pay between fire fighters and paramedics? Should this retirement package go through as a priority before all other shortfalls? I think these simple questions are the core of relevance.
“Has Mr. Sattui ever pulled a dead baby from a burning car and handed it to her mother? Until he has, he has no voice in determining what is “fair” compensation for firefighters and what is not.”
In that case why don’t we pay firefighters 10 million dollars a year? If you’re going to break the bank anyway, why not?
Frank, you also have no voice in determining what fair compensation should be.
The fair compensation for any job should be determined by the free market. The compensation should reflect what a competent employee is willing to accept. I imagine that level is far lower than the unsustainable wages and retirements demanded by public unions. Hundreds, sometimes over a thousand applicants show up for a firefighter job opening.
Frank…your assumptions are dangerous and show YOUR bigotry that does nothing but harm a very relevant issue in many communities in our region and others. It makes me sick to read all of these hateful and threatening responses to someone who plainly made a comment on a political and budgetary issue in their own community. To not questions and investigate the top budgetary items from the city, county, state is assigning. To slanderously call him a racist because of his questioning shows the type of person you are. You do not know Mr. Sattui, nor any of his beliefs other than what was written in his to blogs. It is time to stand up to people like you who use race to scare off anyone who has any different opinion than your own. THAT is racist, and this type of thing is happening everyday in this country.
Finally, just because someone does something socially beneficial does not mean that we cannot questions their compensation…they are our tax dollars. We can questions anything that we want in this country…that does not make us racist, evil, heartless or any other negative adjective. We all know fireman and police, it is not them that we question…it is the viability of our economy that we worry about and want to fix. Plainly my argument is…If we do not have enough money to pay for something we should not do it, especially when there is a 100 fold supply of viable applicants that would fill the demand for the positions at a compensation level that would be set by the market not the unions. Only in government does the highest bidder always win!
20% of my property taxes pay for fire services that are subsidized by medical insurance anyway.
I’m all for these guys making a living, but 200K a year? Why?
I have to agree with Mr. Sattui, compensation at that level is excessive and irresponsible.
The race of the currenlty employed firefighter is irrelovant and has nothing to do with Mr. Sattui’s opinion. The job that these firefighters perform is noble; however Napa county is struggling and Sattui presented a glimpse to back up his stance. Perhaps the compensation that EMT’s and firefighters should be evened out a bit??
To call Sattui a racist for simply pointing out the bloated pay structure for fireman in American Canyon isn’t even a clever red herring. What a laugh. But it does point out the difficulty in having a rational discussion about this issue. No one can even approach the subject without being smeared.
And, yes, why should Sattui have a voice in what compensation should be? He’s only a taxpayer. Best to leave that to the unions that zealously guard their territory like the Mafia controls its monopolies. Come to think of it, even the threats against Sattui sound a bit like the Mob selling protection. If he speaks out, he might have a fire no one shows up for.
It never pays to get into a pi__ing contest with Firefighters…they have bigger hoses and will win every time.
Regardless, that does not excuse the stupidity of the city for agreeing to
these absurd retirement benefits.
To the Michael who said, “He made it very clear that he appreciates the services provided by public safety personnel, but we can’t pay them exorbitant salaries simply because they perform risky work”… You’d better read his initial letter. It will then be clear that he does not appreciate them, and even ATTACKED them all. Good try.
Dario is right. Napa county needs a balanced budget with plans for growth that take care of all sectors of public work. I honestly appreciate all the underpaid teachers more than overpaid firefighters. This county is stagnating right now, and stepping down the path to bankruptcy is not where we should be heading.
Nice use of the Race Card, Frank.
It makes all your comments null & void. If you had an adult argument, you should have made it.
Sorry Frank, but Mr. Sattui has every right to speak out about the outrageous costs of Government Union excesses. He pays the bill, therefore all of the Public Safety Union members are literally his employees. The unsustainable fantasy wages & benefits Unions were able to strongarm from Mr. Sattuis elected representatives are DOA; as is their Retirement Fund. Your moral indignation rings hollow; as does the State & local treasury. We should try privately contracted Fire Depts. They have to answer to a real budget; a business budget.
Saying that Mr. Sattui has no voice is absurd. It is taxpayers like Mr. Sattui who pay these salaries/benefits. He made it very clear that he appreciates the services provided by public safety personnel, but we can’t pay them exorbitant salaries simply because they perform risky work.
There are many equally qualified men and women who would do the work of a firefighter at 20-30% less; any shortage in labor is artificially created by unions.
Shame on you for bringing the specter of racism into a valid public debate. There is ZERO evidence that Mr. Sattui is in anyway racist and unless you know the man, keep your mouth shut!
guess who else pulls dead babies out of cars? EMTs. do you know how much they make? or what kind of retirement package they receive? 9$ an hour for some, you could make more at taco bell
Has anyone pointed out that the American Canyon fire crew is made up largely of racial ethnic minorities?
Surely that can’t be a coincidence. Those who hold views like Mr. Sattui’s often harbor a latent or overt bigotry towards those they view as less worthy.
Has Mr. Sattui ever pulled a dead baby from a burning car and handed it to her mother? Until he has, he has no voice in determining what is “fair” compensation for firefighters and what is not.